Episode 6 -SANDI A Practical Solution To Driver Readiness For Autistic Teens And Adults

Driving can be freedom, fear, or both, and for many autistic teens and adults it comes with extra layers like sensory overload, anxiety, and the pressure of “being on time” for milestones. We sit down with autistic self advocate Andrew Arboe and Jan Schlueter, co-founder and CEO of Neurodiverse Technologies and Entrepreneur in Residence at Vanderbilt’s Frist Center for Autism and Innovation, to talk about what real driver readiness support can look like when independence is the mission.

We dig into the mindset shift that changes everything: there is no magic age for learning to drive. Andrew shares why routines matter, how interest based destinations can make practice feel purposeful, and why reducing anxiety often means removing deadlines rather than piling on pressure. We also talk about practical prep for the written test, including simple tools like online practice tests and flashcards that help learners feel steady instead of overwhelmed.

Jan walks us through SANDI an autism-centered driving simulator built to prepare learners before they step into a real car. With instructor controls, changing weather, adjustable traffic density, surprise scenarios, and eye gaze tracking that shows where a learner is actually looking, SANDI makes it possible to coach skills like visual scanning in a way traditional in-car practice cannot. We also explore why driving anxiety appears to be rising more broadly, and how supportive technology can help both neurodivergent and neurotypical drivers build confidence.

If you care about autism driving resources, driver education, assistive technology, and real pathways to independence, this one is for you. Subscribe, share with a parent or driving instructor, and leave a review so more families can find these tools and conversations.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introductions

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome to the Neurodivergent Resource Podcast. Today I am here with Andrew Arbo and Jan Schluder. Hopefully I got that right. It's so great to have you both here today. We are going to dive into some really great resources and conversations about some work that they're doing in the neurodiverse community. Andrew, it's so nice to see you again. Thanks so much for being here. Go ahead and introduce yourself and then we'll, you know, move on and go on into our conversation.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

Um, yeah, I'm thinking of having you here. And yeah, we've done talks and different uh meetings after a while. I'm a I'm a self-applicate, autistic person, or person with autism. And I'm a I have several different job titles. Officially, I work as a teacher assistant and a direct care uh worker, a autism nonprofit focus center for autism in Connecticut. Outside of all that, I won a freelance freelance brand, Andrew Albell's Autistic Self-African Speaker. That's where I do public speaking and contracting services here. And then today's topic actually goes into my contracting role with with with Jans with the neuro neurodiverse technology. Isn't my first time talking about um uh sandy? Hopefully I'm pronouncing it right. Sandy, sandi, sandy. Okay, cool. I will probably be testing on that later on. And actually ran to a ran into a customer that was aware of that, so that was quite a surprise to find it in Massachusetts. But yeah, happy to be here and happy to finally fulfill fulfill my contracting side with this. My first ever podcast going over on this topic.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

I love that. It was so great to have you here, Andrew, and thank you so much. Jan, I'm so happy to meet you, and I really am looking forward to hearing more about you as well. Please introduce yourself.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Yes, thank you so much, Sarah, for having me, first of all. And I don't think that I have so many titles as Andrew, but I only have two. One is the Entrepreneur in Residence for the Frist Center for Autism and Innovation here at Vanderbilt University. And second, I am the co-founder and CEO of Neurodiverse Technologies, which is basically commercializing products from Vanderbilt University. Not limited to that, but we started today, actually, is our first anniversary. So happy birthday to us.

SPEAKER_03 2:56

Congratulations. Happy anniversary.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yes, thank you. And so the Sandy Driver Readiness platform that we created, which has its origin at Vanderbilt University, is the first of many assistive and supportive tech products that we are bringing to life for the autistic community.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Wonderful. Oh, I really think that this is going to be such a great episode. I know that the driving in general is such a big topic and such a big, you know, hot point, I guess, if you could say, for so many autistics, and whether it be the parents, the individuals themselves, definitely something that we can touch on, bring to light, and get more resources and understanding of what the needs are for the community. Andrew, how did you and Jan connect? What kind of brought you guys together?

SPEAKER_03 3:54

I could probably answer

How Advocacy Led To Driving Work

SPEAKER_03 3:55

this. Honestly, it's for LinkedIn. I knew several different people. Like I have a background in Outreach. If it if I have to go over my professional history, it will take a lot longer than it should. Just check out my website. Probably website. Also have several different social media pages there. I knew I knew a couple people, um, Dave Thomasman, who's like who used to be part of the Nicholas Center in Newark. So I kind of knew him for a while. And then after then like several months ago, like around February, March, more pretty sure January, February, like around that time, I was introduced, I was introduced to Neurodiverse Technologies there. And we were talking and realizing that like a potential like crap of cooperation could be done. Um, during that time, I wasn't doing as much contracting up until that point. So I was so I was I've always been a cooperative person, like I always enjoy sharing my experiences and uh and expertise. And I just kept connecting and realized that this is really cool. I got to see like the kind of like the contract itself with like responsibilities, expectations, and just felt it would be a really good fit. I've always been one that goes into like the uh driving scene. Like a lot of my accuracy started because of writing to drive. And I was reminded about this a few weeks ago. I'll be really quick. It was actually last week. One of the researchers that does all the driving talk, all the driving research, Alison E. Curry, like she did this post where she like 10 years ago, like she sub she submitted this grant proposal on this study, like autistic teen drivers, and reviewers said some of the most baffling things out there. Like, I'm reading this out as I got the whole screenshot out there because I couldn't believe it. I had to share it. Need for driving is unclear. Highly unlikely to improve the health of those with ASD. And then the other one was like highly likely that some teams of ASD will become upset with the new experience of learning to drive. Surprisingly baffling. Like, how dare someone burn driving just so they get more health choices to go to a primary care doctor? And this has come from me, like, of course, of course, not everyone can drive, and that is okay to acknowledge, right? I've always been always like to deep into the nuances of autism. And yeah, some of their benefit, more buses and Ubers, and that's okay. Okay, maybe not Ubers, that costs way too much. For a 10-minute lie, $20, that's ridiculous. I just want to put that out there. But that that that kind of like like that kind of type of thing. If I heard that 10 years ago, not only I would be mad, but I mean, really determined to defeat like the reviewers. And luckily, um Amazon decided to walk away, decided to not look at that and then do their own thing and research. So that kind of got me to the driving scene. And being that kind of reinforced the reason why I go so hard on my public speaking and contracting. And I've also contracted with CHOP, for example. They'd done driving research too. That's I know it's a lot, that's like a big mouthful. And you can get off of that upset box because I'm not highly, I'm liking to improve the health or even the outcomes, like pretty darn delusional in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

And everybody should, you know, have the chance to kind of show what they can be capable of rather than being.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Yeah, and being like realistic, like kind of testing and just being able to point out the reality around them, like in the in the team itself.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

I couldn't agree more. Jan, tell us a little bit about the pro the the process that you're working on, some of the technology and and kind of what brought Andrew and you together on this project.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Yeah, as as Andrew uh let's say uh said rightfully that we were introduced by Dave Thompson, who's also now a part of the Frist Center for Autism and Innovation. He connected us, and and since then Andrew is a great resource and a great advocate for for our driver readiness program. And and I like the touch of sandai, it has something Asian to it, Andrew. But actually, it's called Sandy, but Sandai does also sound also good. And yeah, since then he is he's doing a really great job as an ambassador, being a representative of the mission and of the program that we have, and the overall goal that we are uh let's say trying to achieve, which is, and I admit that driving does not make you healthier, maybe it keeps you healthier by not making a crash into a car or into something else. But so that comment to that, but the overall mission, what we have uh as the FIST Center for Autism and Innovation and Neurodiverse Technologies have is independence. That is the overall. So our goal is to with the tech that we let's say provide and that we research and that we are developing, the overall mission is independence because it is not a lack of let's say the lack of independence for people with autism, it's it's not also a lack of ability. Far away from that, or the contrary, it's a lack of scalable solutions and the lack of access. And we are trying with the Frist Center and with Neurodiverse Technologies and with the support from Andrew to get us uh scalable solutions to level the playing field to get them independence, get them into the workforce, because statistics show that as of now, we are, I would say, facing a systemic failure, basically, one that affects millions of people with autism and of course their support system, their families and friends as well. So this is the the main goal that we have.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

I love that. And thank you on behalf of someone in the community and that important work. And not

Confidence Building Tips For New Drivers

SPEAKER_00 10:24

only that, is you know, I have two 16-year-olds. Guess what I'm about to journey into? Driving. Um, so I'm probably going to be one of your biggest advocates in reaching out and saying, okay, uh, now, you know, how do I get this resource or what do I need for this access? Because uh, like you know very well, Andrew, every individual has different needs and accommodations that they may have. What are some general tips that you might give to parents or to new drivers, whether they're 16 or 75? How can you help them to kind of gain that confidence? Or what do you tell them to start?

SPEAKER_03 11:09

Good one. And that pretty much, if you've probably seen some of my driving the content, I kind of go over a similar bullet points, but I always like to tell people that there's genuinely no magic age, right? I started driving when I was 25, I'm 32, and a few moms on me 33. Most people don't believe me, but they'll take it as it is. At one of my networking events, I actually had someone ask if the mom's here, and I'm like, I'm 32. It was there was out there, out there when my students had a good laugh after I told them the story. But there's no magic uh age. Like I always like to tell people because myself, myself included, I'm guilty of putting restraints of like putting this uh deadline where I really don't need to put a deadline to myself. Because most people try to get this done at a certain age or for a specific reason. It's not about like trying to get yourself settled and like trying to decrease anxiety, it's like giving yourself less reason to be anxious is cool. It's cool. And then I always like to talk people about starting driving routines. It's like get used to your car, get used to how it feels, because you're gonna be in there like most of the time. And that's the same person I've done five-hour trips. I did a five-hour trip to Philly and five hours back last month. So you're gonna be in your car for quite a while, depending on your drives. And also I've always liked to value like the routines and also be able to use places to get experience, like using the places that you like, like pizza places, coffee shops, good news, good things, coffee shops everywhere. If you're into that, like that would be your gym. So just kind of finding things that the drivers like, and that can be like a kind of like a good mor for them to get to the places there, and also going by their reason. And I talk about this to death in my other driving talks prior to this.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

You know, an interest-based kind of pushes there is exactly what we need in the community, or things that you know, driving to, I love that you said that, to places that you are your interest, practicing those routines, those are such important parts of helping someone learn to even have the desire to want to drive, right? And in our home, it's it's quite I am the driver, and my husband doesn't like to drive, he is also autistic, does not like to drive. So, but our teenagers, of course, they are they're excited, they want to do it. So it's a it's a different story across the board. I might I might definitely want you to say something here about it what are your ideas.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

My daughter's 18, and she has she is autistic as well, also very late diagnosed with 17. And also with the support of Sandy, she has her driver's license, I'd say for about seven months now. Wow. And I'd say that that now the driving experience starts. So she has, as Andrew said, she has some um let's say destinations where she wants to go. She practiced that with us. So already this is for us a relief of shuttling her all the time. And now she takes the the car keys as natural, but only drives to certain spots where she feels comfortable with. And I just learned that she right now expands her scope by driving a slightly different route back, or so she is, but right now is the very crucial part. What I'm saying is to learn how to drive. So she has, let's say, for the fact, a driver's license. Does this make her a good driver? No, but right now she has the confidence going from where she is and exploring more and more to increase her radius, which is amazing. So that adds to what Andrew um said to practice a lot, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

I love that. I think in life that everything comes better with practice, especially driving. And you know, it's there's so many rules. How about taking that driver's test? What people what should people do to get prepared for that, Andrew?

What Sandy Simulator Measures And Trains

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Like, if they're what do you tell them? Like, if they're gonna go take their driving test, what do you tell people? Like, do you tell them that they should study extra hard for that written test and not stay up too late the night before?

SPEAKER_03 16:02

Yeah, like the wool test or like the written test or both?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Yeah, just anything. Uh when they're gonna go get their driver's license, like what should they do the night before so that they're ready?

SPEAKER_03 16:14

Not keep it big and just kind of get yourself a refresher. There's actually some really cool practice test websites. There's one that was like driving test.org that does all 50 states, like that's actually a good refresher. And this is for a written test because it's a lot different when you when you go with the world test because that's completely different.

unknown 16:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

It's a good way to craze yourself ahead of time. Always when type to do fashcards. So if you're able to do fashion cards, take them with you up until they called you up at the DMV or whatever it's called in in the in the states. That's something that you yeah, something I like to do that like I always like to do. And then for the wall test, do I answer the wall test or just a witten test?

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah, no, that's fine. I I think that those are great, you know, overlays to both of those to what you need to do to be ready. Uh Jan, tell us about Sandy, how it helps to get drivers ready.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

It's a simulation, it's a pretty pretty simple, let's say, setting. It's uh basically two screens, one for the instructor, one for the driver. It's basically like a symbiosis, if you so will. It's very connected based on data and based on, and that is something that I think no other simulator has these days, is eye gaze tracking. So the instructor can be next to the driver, also can sit next to the room, but has fully control and and fully overview about what the driver is doing, including the eye gaze, meaning so that the uh the instructor sees exactly okay, did the learner just look at the stop sign, the speed limit sign, and the traffic light, and and and certain important objects while driving or not? This this you can't even tell in the real in-car practice scenario. So, this is something because people with autism tend to stare at certain points or just being locked in something specific, like you're not allowed to drive faster than 35 miles per hour, for example, and you just stare at this speedometer and and and forget everything else. So that helps that helps the instructor. It's just one example of many. Yeah, but this, for example, helps the instructor to say, Hey, please, you do not need to look at the speedometer all the time. Just please have a look on the car in front of you or the pedestrian that is right now crossing and all of that. So, what we created with with Sandy is a tool to come as close as possible, like the simulation gives it away in its name, but we have perks to spawn, let's see, emergency vehicles. We can spawn pedestrians, we can just like in the James Bond movie, we can let's say make all the traffic lights turn red, we can switch to rain, to cloudy, to back to nice weather again in a heartbeat. And on top of that, we have an AI algorithm which makes it almost chaotic. So every session is different, the the traffic is different. You can even increase with the bar, you can increase the traffic density, so you can make it really painful to drive if you really want that, which is important because we want to prepare the people before they step into a real-world car. So we make it as unpleasant and unrecognizable and un and surprising as possible, so that they get the hang of it, that they understand the mechanics, they can trigger brain muscle, sorry, muscle memory to to be prepared to get the first driving lesson in a car. So that is the mission, and that is very autism-centric designed to do that. And the good thing is it works for everybody else, but traditional ways I just talked about this earlier didn't work at all for the autistic community. But now it works for them and for everybody else. And you know what? Fun fact not statistically proven yet, but in the one year where I was talking with real customers, real driving schools, real people with contact with autistic people, but also with the neuromajority or the neurotypical people, and they said to me that there is a spike in the same, I'd say that's a spa increase in being anxious and an anxiety also in the neurotypical population, and that is something, and that's why we are here at Vanderbilt. That's something that we can now find the answer to that question. Why is this the case? So I heard this almost with every demo that I do with with driving schools, they say we have a spike in anxious drivers since a couple of years, and we need to find out why.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

I love that. And you know, a question that just popped in my mind when you were talking about the eye tracking and things. Do you also record the session so

Access Links Webinar Invite And Wrap

SPEAKER_00 21:38

that the students themselves can go back and re-watch what they may have done and maybe learn visually what they could do differently?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

We that's what we have. The instructor can be there at any time and interrupt and then can go through that just the scenario. But to review this on video is something that we have on our roadmap for later.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Oh, great, great. Well, good. I'm a future thinker. So I love that. That's wonderful thinking, Andrew. What did you have you tested out? The simulation yourself?

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Um, that is one of the things I kind of wish, but unfortunately I did ask. Unfortunately, my laptop is not equipped for it. Oh, dang. But it doesn't mean never say never.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Whenever a place sets it up there, you bet I will go over there and test it out myself. Love that. Like the webinar I'm doing later this month on the 28th. I had to have to kind of design that webinar very carefully. Trying to make it not so pitchy, but be like, kind of like, I wish I had the choice of selecting this. Like this was like I wish I had this back in 2017. Like I kind of wish I had the choice to. Because a lot of accuracy, but I always like to be able to educate and then leave it up to people on what to do with that. Um it's actually they call it. I'm recently doing an employment course in one of the newer versities. I've been posting on my page, and one of them, the term is called the inform choice. Yeah. Of being able to lay those auctions out and then people being able to make an educated choice on them. Like I wish I had that opportunity of doing so in the past. So I'm kind of hoping with this. And I actually don't know the percentage. It would be very interesting to know the percentage of how many, how many of the people I've contacted about this program. Like I will admit that would be kind of interesting. But one of those, I'll just have to see what happens there. But but the moment I hear that the simulator exists, between Connecticut, Mass, you know, like these surrounding states in my area, I would love to try that. Or I could suggest this scene as my supervisor, the closest title to a supervisor is here. If there's ever like hopefully a decently nearby conference or something to set up in person, that would actually not be a terrible idea to have that on display.

unknown 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

I'm just saying you think about it, but we email afterwards. We email later this month.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Wait, no, I'm just joking. That's wonderful. Well, this, you know, I'm this is a wonderful resource for families, for individuals themselves. Where can we go to find out more information about the program and support that as well?

SPEAKER_01 24:30

We do have a website called sandy.website. You find this. Of course, you can contact me. I'm the contact person. Number one, Andrew is contact person. Number two, he does a great job in helping me to get in his area organizations and driving schools and schools and special ads, let's say, informed about what we do. Yeah. Sammy, the website. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

I was like, I heard that right, right? Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

And yeah, so and we have already a lot of outlets there in California and Tennessee, obviously, where we are, and in in Washington State, in Pennsylvania, in Illinois, Texas, Florida. So we are really going.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Expanding. Yeah, it sounds like it. This what a wonderful program. And thank you for all of the work you guys are doing there for spearheading this up. And Andrew, I'm so excited that you are a part of it. And you know, really, this the driving has been, I mean, since I've known you for five or six years now, has you know been your your main thing. So I'm really excited that you're collaborating with someone so experienced in the the field already. So really good luck to you both in in the future of the project.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

I might want to make some advertisement for Andrew's uh webinar, which is May 28th. Okay. May 28th. You can register. If you if you go on Andrew's, let's say, page, he will promote this, but here as well with his podcast, May 28th. I think it's 6:30 eastern time. It's uh it's his webinar where where we are together and promoting and talking about his story as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Oh, I love that. And Andrew, what is your website?

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Uh probably mine's slightly longer when when the program's uh website, but mine is Andrew Albell, primounch my first and last name dot repery.com. That way you can kind of find me, you could look at all the crazy things I've done. Crazy things I've done, like all my workshops, contracting examples, and couldn't what I do with neuro neurodiverse technologies, and also could do have an autism and driving page.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Is that what you said? Andrew ArboDriving.com. Did I do that right?

SPEAKER_03 27:00

No, Andrew Arbo.webree. Like oh, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

I misunderstood that. Okay, okay. We'll put that in the show notes for sure. We'll ever yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yep, we'll do. And also on Facebook, Instagram, X-Men's been exploding lately because of the month of April. And yeah, those pages I cover not just autism stuff, but I also cover not autism stuff to prove people I'm not a workaholic. Going traveling, posting about cool video games I really like, going to stores, arcades, networking every now and then, just kind of like try to kind of like to keep variety going. And I'm actually hoping to post like there's some book recommendations, autism book recommendations on my page. So I'm trying to be more creative with uh the platform I have.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Love that. Well, we appreciate the work and the advocacy, and like you said, the platform using your platform for the good of you know the autistic community. And we really appreciate you and honor your your time you've been spending doing all of these things. So it was so great to to have you both on the show today. And Jan, it was so great to meet you. And I look forward to staying in touch and getting to know more about your programs. And and Andrew, I know we'll be staying in touch and following one another's journeys along the way. So thank you two so much. And we look forward to catching up with you guys in the future.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Thank you. Talk to you soon.